A Condor flight from Palma de Mallorca missed the curfew at Munich by mere seconds earlier this week. Flight DE1513 was just 2,100 feet from touching down when the clock ticked over 12:30 am, forcing the aircraft to divert to Frankfurt-Hahn airport 375 kilometers away. The story was first reported by German newspaper Bild, who just happened to have a reporter on the flight.
How can that possibly happen?
Many German airports have a strict nighttime curfew and airlines and airports can be heavily fined for operations outside permitted times. The standard curfew at Munich is 12:00 am, though exemptions are allowed through 12:30 if requested before a flight departs. That is precisely what happened in this case, with Condor requesting an exemption to 12:30 am. Unfortunately, the flight was further delayed and just barely missed its arrival window.
Off to a bad start
The day did not start off well for Condor’s A321 D-ATCA. The aircraft overnighted in Hamburg and was scheduled out to Hurghada at 6:05 am. The flight departed nearly 90 minutes late, but made up some time landing just an hour late. The aircraft then operated between 60-90 minutes late for the rest of the day, eventually extending into early the morning of 3 June and breaking the Munich curfew.
What happens to the passengers?
From Hahn, passengers were bussed to Frankfurt (FRA) and placed on Condor’s morning flight to Munich arriving just before 08:00 am the following day— more than nine hours after their scheduled arrival time.
Adding insult to injury, the aircraft that diverted actually ferried back to Munich ahead of the passengers.
Have your say
What do you think about the diversion? Is this a case of rules-are-rules or is it regulation run amok? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below.
92 Responses
It is regulation run amok.
Ridiculous and anti ecological. How many car kms were made?
Missed the window by seconds? Common sense is less and less common.
Have to agree!
Germans are Germans. Urdnumg muss sein…
Don’t call our “Ordnung” an “Urdnumg”. Thats not gentle.
But in fact landing should be possible but with an heavy penalty for the airline.
Common Scence out the Window … thats Germans for ya … Pilots should of landed anyway … ATC shouldnt interupt pilots like that on finals …
We all saw the great Ordnung when it came to gas millions with great Ordnung
The supposedly most mannered people on earth enjoyed murdering babies and men women alike
By 31 mins
Yep.
Common Scence out the Window … thats Germans for ya … Pilots should of landed anyway … ATC shouldnt interupt pilots like that on finals …
They’d already been given the extra 30 minutes leeway.
Surely there is a window within which a landing would be more acceptable versus having to power up and get back up again?
It’s Germany i’m not surprised. Many airports don’t have curfews and its not like the people there are going crazy or something. Dumb rule and inefficient typical for Germany.
The noise from the turn around at 2100ft would be more than landing noise, so silly.
That was my thought as well.
Indeed. Brainless regimentation is the hallmark of Germany, carried over to the EU. Had I been the Captain, I’m thinking we experienced a radio failure on short final.
But you are not.
Not following ATC order is a violation.
For your info this is not the flight crew that decided to divert, they were asked to Go-Around by ATC. (I had similar cases in Geneva 20 years ago)
So you decide not to follow ATC order on short final pretending « radio failure », and then what ? You play the game until the end and cannot taxy without assistance (no radio remember) or pretend by magic it came alive after landing again ?
In all the case ATC will find a report, you will probably get some folks at the gate waiting for you, they will offload and listen to the cockpit voice recorder and clearly see you are just a bullshiter.
You will be remove from flying duty until the end of investigation and your airline will not follow you at all (they will have to pay and very huge fine for the landing you made on purpose outside curfew), if you are lucky you will go on some training, probably loose the captain position and become a firsy officer again, or simply get fired.
Congratulation^^
I totally agree with all of you that curfew and some regulation are total non sence etc…but you cannot blame crew for following ATC order as long as it is not again safety. It is their job.
The paint scheme could have made the difference, paint horizontally!
😂😂
Kleinlich, möchte man sagen. Aber irgendwo muss ja mal Schluss sein, wenn es schon solche Regeln gibt. Den Passagieren und der Umwelt hat man jedenfalls in München keinen Gefallen getan.
Dss ist nicht “kleinlich” , nein , das ist das Ergebnis von grün/roter Arroganz gepaart mit einem unvorstellbarem Maß an Dummheit und Unkenntnis, und dies nicht nur bei MINT- Fächern!
Alles von Studienabbrechern, Berufs-Abgeordneten und Weltenrettern in “Gesetze” gegossen, die im Endeffekt unnütz oder gar schädlich sind und die im Fall der Fälle dann für sie selbst natürlich nicht gelten (s. Nachtflug Bärbock ab FFA während der Sperrzeit)
Rules can not be ignored in aviation or possible havoc could occur
Stupidity knows no bounds. At 00:30 what difference is there if the flight lands at 00:33?
This was not an aviation rule. The danger was in an unnecessary missed approach, go around and diversion late at night with low fuel and no thought given to weather at the alternate.
There is a saying in aviation which is….Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the followance of fools. Look up CFIT.
What would the havoc be in this case?
Rules are rules. Everyone including airlines must respect the rules. The airline already had 30 minutes grace period. There has to be a limit to the leeway one can have.
no. totally wrong. That rule does not make sense. it happens again and again that planes have to divert because of seconds/minutes that they are “too late”
During WWII a crazy man donned a uniform and commanded the townsfolk to march through the streets in a line. Everyone did so until someone noticed who he was. Strict rule followers which is strange for a continental country.
This was not an aviation rule. The danger was in an unnecessary missed approach, go around and diversion late at night with low fuel and no thought given to weather at the alternate.
* 2100ft on QNH means they were descending through 450ft for touchdown , literally less then 60secs from landing ! ! !
* common sense would dictate that once inside the OM / 1000ft agl , if safe, the aircraft should continue to land.
* 0030 would seem to be a reasonable extension under normal circumstances , so both crew and ATC should have been conscious of ETA as they passed FL100 descending and that was the time for a decision .
* Who initiated the Go Around , Pilot or ATC ?
Even less than 60 seconds, the aircraft was 2,100 feet *laterally* from the touchdown zone of the runway.
I think your last question is legitimate.
I would assume it was ATC, as the pilots were clearly on final descent.
Let me just say that a few years back, I was in Berlin – around 10pm snowing and freezing cold. The streets were empty of cars in all directions, but the crosswalk sign on the pedestrian lane was red and no one was crossing. I looked around and crossed, clearly hearing gasps of disgusts and disdain. Germans have a strong relationship with rules, imho.
Would have been pilot. To avoid the fines on the airline.
Yes, the Ryanair flight that was 45 seconds too late in Berlin and had to divert to Hannover, and now this. If they are so close to the runway and less than 1 minute late, they should be allowed to land.
Would have made more noise climbing (if due to noise abatement rules) than it would have by coasting in to land! Ridiculous.
Nothing makes sense these days least of all Germany and it’s political grandstanding. Absolutely wasteful and tempting fate to have this aircraft divert.
It is totally OK, that they had to divert!
Interestingly, they didn´t get the, often on request available, shortcut from Mallorca to the North, and more important, they also reduced the IAS significantly, during large parts of the flight, and the approach.
So, if their interest in reaching Munich on time was obviously that low, there was no reason for the Airport, or the people around, to extend the already extended curfew any further.
Condor could have paid the fine.
Condor could have realized that they were cutting it close for even the 12:30 arrival and not risked it.
Knowing that it’s a last flight of the day in day and they are dealing with curfews they could just had not originally scheduled it to be so tight at the end of their day.
I somewhat understand the economics and thin profit margins that airlines face, but this is simply one of those things that are predictable that airlines prefer not to think about when budgeting their flights. Plan for 99.99% perfection and we will probably make up for delays. Everyone once in a while (daily?) we will have a bigger issue and we’ll look foolish and have to pay for hotels etc. the alternative is to plan for 95% operational perfection and look back and say, why weren’t our planes in the air more. We missed out on so much revenue. A small potential loss is always going to be better than a medium sized certain loss.
If I’m heading to the bus stop for the last bus knowing I will be just in time, I would run not walk.
As an employer I would ask this pilot what made him miss this deadline. Common sense dictates I better make it, before I have to take these poor passengers to a place the didn’t want to go to that night.
He would tell his employer that the plane had been running 90 minutes late all day, which the “employer” was well aware of.
The pilot was just doing his job. Ever do something for strange reasons on your job?
Yes, what an abhorrent waste of everyone’s time and resources for 1 minute. Certainly that close and assumedly stabilized short final, really? The call should have been made 10 minutes out as the FMGS would have pretty exact timing on the last sequences. If this was ATC they should be held accountable for providing further clearances getting them in so close.
Another reason for me to limit my overseas flying to XPlane.
Fully understand the curfew. But comrades – 10 seconds? Really? Something is completely wrong here! Doesn´t make sense … even in Germany 🙂
Uncommon sense at its best.
Uncommon sense at its best.
Ein typisches Ergebnis natürlicher, sprich menschlischer Intelligenz. Diese hat von Natur aus auch einen negativen Pegel, was man an diesem Ergebnis nicht besser darstellen konnte.
Governmental taxation for aircraft use of airspace, customs, passenger fees, airport fees, rents inside an airport building, fuel taxes plus airport runway and gate rent is all very large. “Tax cost” includes an inability to operate at many airports worldwide during certain times. Politicians and the tax man step on stage, expect things not to work as planned in row 39. The airline and traveling passenger is gonna get taxed hard when approaching any airliner or any airport. Airports run by the government are designed to be large profit centers.
Maybe a $50,000 diversion plus other passengers costs. The government rules and taxes represent a high mountain for all. Buy a ticket, take the ride.
I would think a rule that any aircraft ‘inside’ the outer marker at 12:30, under the control of the tower, would be considered as having made the cutoff time. Planes either beyond the outer marker, or not under the control of the tower (vice approach control) must divert.
Good idea.
How much did the divert cost -including fuel, crew overtime, hotels and payments to passengers, plus, plus…
How much is the fine?
I guess that saying that the curfew was missed “by a few seconds” is misleading. It rather was missed by more than 30 minutes. Having a curfew without a grace period would be overly strict, but if you do not put a limit on the grace period, it means that effectively, there is not going to be a real curfew.
One could argue though that the curfew should apply to the time when the approach clearance is given. This way, an unnecessary approach (and the associated noise) could be avoided more easily. Unfortunately, I do not think that defining a curfew in such a way is possible within the framework of the current regulatory regime.
Anyway, I wonder why the aircraft diverted to HHN and not NUE. This would have been much closer and passengery could have easily been taken to MUC from there by bus. I can only guess that maybe NUE couldn’t take an unscheduled flight at nighttime due to the construction works currently happening there.
Wouldn’t have been better for all if they had just been able to pay a fine at MUC, steep as it is? As opposed to, burning the fuel getting to altitude, diverting to HHN, busing folks to FRA (most likely providing hospitality along the way) and finally, filling seats with technically non-revenue PAX on the morning flight to MUC. Oh yeah…and paying crew more overtime? 🤷🏼♂️
It’s surprising how strict these curfews can be, especially with just seconds to spare! It must be frustrating for passengers and airlines alike to have such a near miss. I’m curious if there are any discussions about adjusting curfew flexibility in situations like this, where the plane is already on final approach?
It’s disgusting that numpty politicians – you know those useless inept and corrupt morons who we could so easily do without if ever given the choice, ruin businesses and peoples lives by their inept crass decisions – especially when incidents such as this, which was not deliberate do occur
My question to all ‘do-gooders’ here especially our Saxon friends who are well known for following instructions like lemmings – What if there was an emergency? Would it be ok to land?
Surely the arrival time at the final approach fix could have been used to consider a flight as within or out of the curfew time rather than jeopardize the flight with a last second go-around! Did the crew know ahead of time that they might have to go around? How much is safety jeopardized by the crew having one eye on the clock while making an approach? What if they had been three seconds from touchdown and the airplane couldn’t react fast enough to avoid a touchdown… jail time? What protocol/verbiage did they use to notify the crew that the landing clearance was rescinded? Did anyone consider these operational factors at the time the curfew was implemented or after this flight made news? What situation was avoided by denying an arrival ten seconds into the curfew?
Makes no sense That close to touchdown More a/c noise leaving than landing
Were clocks synchronized with a common source? Maybe the tower was off. who knows?
No need to write jokes exaggerating German rigidity. They provide plenty of examples in real life. What if the flight was late by 3 seconds?
A German friend of mine (RIP) once told me that if a shopkeeper kept someone waiting by opening the shop a couple of minutes later than the posted time, he can be punished by law.
You should keep your friend in good memory, but simply do not believe in what he told you…!
Really?
Oh, Come on!
Unbelievable!
Rules are rules. The company should not have taken the risk from the beginning.
Régulations should apply, but an exemption with a fine should be possible. Fines would be calculated in function of time overruns. Running an A321 between MUC and FRA and back plus ferrying the passengers back to MUC isn’t free either AND causes lots of unnecessary air pollution.
At least Condor looked after the passengers. Our BA755 from Munich to Heathrow on 2 June was cancelled after 6 fire engines surrounded the incoming flight after landing, and BA left us to make our own accommodation arrangements
Rule is rule, so late means late. They could have worked out the time of arriving, if late by seconds, stop and wait till the curfew reopen in the morning at destination. Hope they learnt the lesson.
We are all under pressure to reduce the carbon footprint. This just makes a mockery of it. I know rules are rules, but surely someone in the driving seat can use good judgement with one-off situations
The pilot could have adjusted his speed with additional power to make up for the time as compared to diverting to 450 km. It looks so absurd. I believe it’s a system failure which must be reviewed with open mind rather than ruthless and senseless rules arm to cause unnecessary nuisance only.
It’s a non-negotiable ruling. I’m sure Air Traffic Control weren’t told “it’s the law but hey peeps, use your discretion”.
By forcing them to abort the landing they created more noise on the ascension. Hard to find people who can think logically these days.
This sometimes happens in Japan at ITM and FUK which both have strict night time curfews. If there is a delay, aircraft might divert to KIX, return to HND, or be cancelled before departure if there is a chance the curfew will be breached.
Once I came 60 seconds late to the gate. It was closed. I missed the flight. My bad. I should have been on time.
This happens when airlines squeeze the last minutes out of their schedule. If Condor would have allowed a full hour turnaround time (or more) at all and every of their their ground stops during the day, the flight would have had a chance to catch up and landed before night closure at MUC. It is the same everywhere, the fact that SNCF-trains are much more often on time than DB-trains is not due to their faster trains but due to the prolonged stopping-times at each and every station 😉
Rules run amok over reasoning.
How do we reach carbon reduction targets under the CORSIA programme when the rules are so rigid. 10 seconds more the aircraft could have landed. How much fuel burn could have been avoided by the diversion, ferry flight and the flight back by the affected pax and the time lost because of the 10 seconds miss.
Sustainable regulatory policy making should be a mandatory module for those who set those rules
And all adding extra air miles and contamination to the atmosphere, CO2 …
Germany – where common sense is no that common.
This is so ridiculous. The Germans have ruled them down themselves. This law is actually a crime against environment. It would have been much quieter and less emissions if the aircraft were allowed to land. Shame on that law, it needs to be changed ASAP !
On the side 🙂
Aircraft on final for landing without lights in the dark – Pilot to tower: Guess who.
Tower turned off all lights on the airport: turns off all lights on the airport: Guess where.
Have a Nice day 🌞 🌴
C. Robert 👨🏻✈️ Fokker 50 Pilot.
Je trouve cela complètement stupide de faire 375 km de plus et ces même personne qui se plaindraient d’un atterrissage à quelques secondes près sont certainement les mêmes que celles qui râlent contre la consommation des avions…
Refusing permission for an aircraft to land when it is this far into the approach is ludicrous. Clearly a jobsworth in ATC. He or she should be fired.
Das entspricht der deutschen Regulierungswut, die keinerlei Ausnahmen kennt, auch nicht wenn es sich nur um 10 Sekunden handelt. Der volkswirtschaftliche Schaden ist dadurch enorm höher ausgefallen.
This is ” modern Germany” or maybe it was always like that , “a nation of followers”
I’d have had 1 min of comm failure and landed the pilots must have known this was a possibility.
Approx 3000kg ( 3750) L of fuel burnt diverting for nothing , not to mention the safety risk of running low on fuel.
Then there’s the fuel to get the aircraft back to where it needs to be !!
Complete idiocy all round
Some people just deserve to be replaced by computers. The sooner, the better.
Lets adjust that headline, the plane missed the curfew by 30+ mins, not seconds, the curfew starts at 12:00 and they give the possibility of an extra 30mins is they ask before hand, it went over 30mins, it is written right there, in the second paragraph, and since both the airport and airline would get fined if they operate after it, if ATC said you can’t land, it would probably mean the whole fine would go to the airline, and it’s probably more than all the extra cost of flying to the other airport plus accommodation etc., if they decided to cancel landing.
It was 30 minutes and a few seconds late, not just seconds
Deutschland!
Well, they got a 30 minutes exemption and they did not make it. So they are supposed to get another 5 minutes? And then ten more? If you begin to work this way, you can forget the curfew. Similar regulation with truck drivers. So what?
The flight crew knew the regulation and they guessed they could make it but didn‘t. End of story. A disgruntled BILD reporter on board makes a scandal out of it and the usual suspects add their usual troll content.
Next question.
The sense of the regulation is avoiding noise during the night.
But a “going araound” Aircraft produces a lot mor noise than finishing the landing.
Is the law for the people or are the people ther to follow the law ?
There is a saying in aviation which is….Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the followance of fools. Look up CFIT.
Sorry, this video was misleading and not quite up to the standards I expect from you.
If they actually had been 10 seconds late, of course it would seem very unreasonable to quibble about 10 seconds. But they were over 30 minutes late and must have known that there was a very high risk that they wouldn’t make the extended curfew.
It would have been much more responsible and much better for passengers and the environment (fuel use/noise) if the airline had planned a diversion early on instead of engaging in high risk gambling.
And I’m not impressed by you inviting everyone to put the blame on Munich airport based on an incorrect – or at least incomplete – story in your video.
Did you read the post?